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    Saturday, May 20, 2006

    India says "not me"!

    I should remind everyone that hindus have monkey gods, elephant gods, and cow
    gods. Do these folks really think people will convert back to something like
    that? It is pre-historic, and mainly isolated rural folks.

    Pope Benedict XVI's remarks on 'disturbing signs of religious intolerance in India' have put Christians here on the defensive but opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has called them 'highly objectionable'.


    'There are disturbing signs of religious intolerance which have troubled some regions of India, including the reprehensible attempt to legislate clearly discriminatory restrictions on the fundamental right of religious freedom,' the pope was quoted as saying.

    BJP-ruled Rajasthan has recently passed legislation banning religious conversions, but it has been awaiting President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam's assent.

    Party leaders are angry over the pope's remarks.

    'If conversion is a right, re-conversion is also is a right. Will he agree to it?' asked Malhotra.

    'States like Orissa and Madhya Pradesh made a law to ban conversion during first prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru's period. The state governments found that Christian missionaries were crossing the limit.

    'I think even Christian doctrines say conversion by force or allurement is wrong. How can we accept it then?' he asked.

    Dilip Singh Judev, an MP who has been involved in the re-conversion drive in north Indian states, said the pope's reaction had come 'out of desperation'.'They are not able to convert Hindus any longer. He is worried now,' Judev told IANS.

    Sure Mr. Judev, the Pope is desperate... only for the well being of his


    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    We are not pope's people.

    Let us live in peace and harmony.
    and to remind you, I recently
    converted 2 christians ( white males )
    to fold of hinduism.

    We wont let christianity rule the world, though it says in bible that christianity is best and other religions stink, I say its the other way round.

    If you guys dont stop the poison of spreading lies under the umbrella of christianity, same can be done by us.

    Its only Pope is getting taste of his medicine in India.

    Lots of reconversion going on in india from Christianity to hinduism and in number of thousands.

    Pope must be thinking that the business of conversion is going down and no profits, thats why he is getting worried.

    May 21, 2006  
    Anonymous priyam said...

    i think its highly immature that two religions are trying to put one another down, through various demeaning way, whether it be forced conversion , reconversion or using monetary means to get ppl to convert, all religions are sacred to the ppl who belong to it, who ever feels their god and truth lies in which ever religion should be let to follow that one... for instance i'm so sick of this farce about religions i believe in a supreme being my own god, who i love cherish pray to , talk to, and believe me thats where my comfort lies, religion is all about personal beliefs.
    and by the way you my friend are no one to judge the religion of others, we all can rip christianity and hinduism into shreds if we want to.
    and about the monkey god and elephant god, please give them some respect, they are hanuman and ganesh.
    my grand mother was portugese a roman catholic and the rest of my family high class brahmins . when we can live in peace together while following our own religions why cannot u understand... forced conversion is ridiculuos.
    dont victimise each others religions to derogatory comments. instead attack the ppl who try and force conversion.
    even i'm against the rajasthan act... but doesnt mean i demean the religion

    May 22, 2006  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Joseph ..i am very diappoined with your remarks.. I myself am a catholic..Please learn to respect other peoples religion..n not term them as money god's or anything..

    May 23, 2006  
    Blogger Joseph said...

    Well they are monkey gods.

    It is mainly rural folks who get so excited over it.

    And I can't imagine a Christian convert would ever go back to thinking a bananna eating monkey is god.

    I respect the people who believe such things, but it would be going a far way to respect such a religion. Not if I am to be honest.

    Living in harmony is no major test of a religion. It is a test of the social situation.

    And the comments about the Pope wanting money, and forced conversions are silly. But I can respect their misunderstanding.

    May 24, 2006  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...


    Till now your so called Pop was getting people converted in India without any problems. But now the so called missionaries are trying to convert hardcore hindus and that is what is getting back to pop.

    if your pop is so worried abt people, why doesnt he look to USA where White Racist bafoons are living a luxury life and blacks are left only with sympathy.

    Well your pop cannot tell his daddy USA anything because that is where the money for converting poor people comes from and his dream to rule the world like Hitler ( A dictator ) wont come true. I dont think you know abt his dream to be a dictator.
    Actually Jesus Crist came to my dreams last night and told me abt it.

    And one more thing if you want Hindus to side Islam and fight christians like it is said "The clash of Civilizations" then so be it.

    hindus you deal with are not religious zealots and will punch very intelligently so dont try to think that you will get over with conversions and we wont do nothing.

    We were here even before Jesus's Mom stepped on earth and we will be here after you all chritians are gone.

    And let me ask you a ques.

    If he is so into religious tolerance, why doesnt he build up a Mosque and a Hindu temple, and a Jewish synagouge to display World Brotherhood.

    It requires guts and balls to do that, and I think his balls are only for decoration. In India you will find all three ( Synagouge,Mosque, Temple ) happy living with church.
    So there goes your think with you suggesting abt monkey gods.

    We are more tolerant and so our religion is much better than yours.

    Chritianity Sucks big time

    May 24, 2006  
    Anonymous eveloved from a monkey, not a modern creationist fruitcake said...

    If you are so convinced that people won't go back, what is it that worries you? let the fools do what they want with laws and prehistiric lies. its won't dent you at all. Why give them legitimacy by writing trash abt them?

    May 24, 2006  
    Blogger Joseph said...

    What trash am I writing? And why has talking about their monkey gods drawn so many comments?

    I am happy with my religion, and they are happy with theirs.

    It seems that regarding tolerance, they need the excuse of "other people are worse". OK. That tells me a lot. I will not change their minds with this blog. Tolerance in nice, but no test of a religion.

    I would think they would be proud of their monkeys, and defend the beauty of it. Not take it the wrong way.

    Again, I respect the people. Who wouldn't? I am surprised at the claim that Christians are going back the the old religion, and asking myself the question.. who would do such a thing? Perhaps they did not understand Christianity.

    And as far as money to buy converts? Perhaps they mean the food given to hungry people caught in a caste system that is held together by economic means. I don't know. Certainly they can not expect their government or the rest of the world to support keeping people as the Untouchables poor and hungry. Or perhaps they do expect that. If so, they are mistaken.

    May 24, 2006  
    Anonymous Evolved from a Monkey, not a modern creationist fruitcake said...

    what an ego, why should we defend your ignorance and base hatred? its you personal or spiritual or religious problem. the comments were not on your mention of Hanumana, but your conceited claim that that makes you superior. As far as respect for other religions goes, it IS important as its a matter of faith. Faith is between me and God and it does not concern what goes on between others and God. Just the same way some people believe in God's manifestation in the form of a "banana eating monkey", some people believe in miracles and resurrections and virgin mothers. I don't see why that should not be respected as they are believing in God in the end and we shouldn't have the arrogance to interfere.

    Again, if there is no money to buy converts, and its all humanitirian, then whats to worry? Is there any law in India that stops you feeding the poor or sheltering the needy? is there any law that stops you from propagating your religion? the answer in NO. Then why complain? I think whats ticking off you bunch is that some Hindu organizations are successfully reconverting hindus. But isn't it equality too? but again, as you said, respect is no test of YOUR religion.

    The evil of Cast system has always been your weapon of persuation. However, the cast system was banned and positive discrimination to lower casts (50% of seats and jobs) was implemented AFTER the catholic british left India. Cast system bound by economic means? can you explain how that works? Its a social problem and how does conversion help???Can you also explain why catholics in India are demanding reservation to christian lower casts? what the hell is a christian lower cast btw??? haven't their social and economic problems finished with conversion. So much for hypocrisy.

    May 25, 2006  
    Blogger Joseph said...

    I have an ego, I am ignorant of many things, but I certainly don't hate.

    What conceited claim is that you are talking about? Everyone thinks their religion is the one true religion. If not, it's time to start searching for the ultimate truth. I have found mine, and I presume you think have found yours. Else, we would still be searching.

    Our Christian understanding is that Faith is not between an individual and God. It is between all his children and Him. That's why we have comcern for those who have not known our Faith, and why we can never stop proclaiming the truth.

    Other religions are not believing in God "in the end" as you say. They are believing in something they call god, but all roads do not lead to God. If I said my computer was god, it would not lead me to the true God. If I thought the sun was god, it would not lead me to god. One simply ought to know who this God is that they wish to believe in.

    Nothing is ticking our "bunch" off regarding Christians converting to Hindu. They are free and welcome to do that. But I still must question their understanding of Christianity.. I think perhaps they really had no idea what they were attempting to be. Or they would not go back.

    I think I said that tolerance is no test of a religion. Tolerance is a test of the civic atmosphere and structure. Let's not mix up respect and tolerance. Respect wouldn't mean much if it were demanded. It has to be earned. Whereas tolerance is demanded for social harmony and safety.

    Is it not odd that you now see the caste system as someone else's weapon and not the weapon who love and support the system? It was invented and sustained and believed in by hindus? Whether or not the English were duty bound to break the system is another question. It seems the people who cherish it so much are the ones who must end it.. as India's government is trying now to do. By the way, the English were not Catholic, but were Christian.

    Regarding the Caste system being economic, the low caste are always to be poor because first, the hindus see this as cosmic justice, and second, they are allowed no education or jobs that would allow them to rise above their economic circumstance, and aid future low caste generations by passing on the money to give them a head start in life. In the physical life they believe low caste must remain so. Unless the cycle is broken as your government is trying to do, regardless of resistance from hindus.

    Becoming Christian, the low caste learns that there is no reason from God for their perpetual low economic position in life. In God's eye all his children are equal. There is no caste. That breaks the hindu system entirely. Fearful for hindus, liberating for the new Christian.

    High caste people can not maintain their position without a low caste social structure to support them.

    Talk about ego? High caste people think it is their god's will that they be high, while others be low. A direct opposite of the Christian understanding.

    So after all, it is about economics when seen by people who do not have a Christian view, and all about love between God's children when seen by people with a Christian view.

    May 25, 2006  
    Anonymous Birdie said...

    Being a low cast Hindu, i feel so happy that your heart bleeds for me. Just a correction though, the current affirmative action is not for low caste Hindus, its for high caste hindus (other backward classes and not (and excluding) backward CASTS) who are so rich. Its being implemented because the govt thinks the whole idea of economics and cast is BS and its really a social and education issue. Thanks for your sympathy though. Apologies, as your pure intentions were misunderstood by my family and one of my ancestors was justly burned alive at the stake in Goa. I hope he's happy in heaven now.

    May 25, 2006  
    Anonymous troll said...

    May 26, 2006  
    Anonymous troll said...

    Our Christian understanding is that Faith is not between an individual and God. It is between all his children and Him. That's why we have comcern for those who have not known our Faith, and why we can never stop proclaiming the truth.

    Thank God we are covered under the salvation guarantee scheme too. Good marketing guys. Thanks you God for directing us to this enlightning blog too. We had forgotten the true face of the compassionate. Your abysmal ignorance abt Hinduism is almost divine. You ARE a man of God.

    May 27, 2006  
    Anonymous Troll said...

    Read abt the issue from someone who has first hand experience of persecution in India.

    May 29, 2006  
    Blogger Joseph said...

    "Thank God we are covered under the salvation guarantee scheme too. Good marketing guys. Thanks you God for directing us to this enlightning blog too. We had forgotten the true face of the compassionate. Your abysmal ignorance abt Hinduism is almost divine. You ARE a man of God."

    Who said you were covered under the salvation scheme? I have no information that that might be, but is nice to hope that somehow that might be.

    How would you like me to be compassionate I wonder? Just telling the truth would be a good place to start. I suspect you mean polite rather than compassionate. Polite I do not claim to be. Especially when cultural differences are at play.

    "Your abysmal ignorance abt Hinduism is almost divine"

    Could be. Has anyone lifted my ignorance? Doesn't seem so. I think they are just somehow insulted.

    Anyway, good luck to us all. I could not be a Christian if I did not think I held the truth. I presume hindus feel the same way. I love the truth, and would enjoy some hindu truths. But all I hear is that I am ignorant and hindus are insulted.

    Not a very enlightening conversation.

    Let's stop. No good is being done. I am as ignorant as when I started.

    Peace, harmony, smiles and hugs. That will have to suffice.

    May 29, 2006  
    Anonymous troll said...

    Nobody bothered to enlighten you as you came across as enlightened already. Besides, we did not want to appear like apologists.

    Meaningful dialogue - go to Od's blog, maintained by a respectable Missionary. Start from India ink, then The twain meet and then More hindu christain dialogue...

    May 30, 2006  
    Blogger Joseph said...

    Thank you troll.

    Nobody enlightened me because I am already enlightened, and "we" did not want to be apologists.

    There is something cultural dividing us, since the give and take of discussion is leading nowhere.

    Apparently the divide is too great to have an exchange of ideas.

    I intend to remain at my present level of ignorance regarding hinduism. There are so many interesting things, and so limited time. Hinduism does not make the list.

    Thanks all for your valuable insight. You are the experts. Carry On.

    May 30, 2006  
    Anonymous troll said...

    The "Give and Take of ""IDEAS"" started with this

    "I should remind everyone that hindus have monkey gods, elephant gods, and cow
    gods. Do these folks really think people will convert back to something like
    that? It is pre-historic, and mainly isolated rural folks."

    What were expecting from me mate? A tirade of the same 'quality?'. Do better next time if you are sincere abt exchanging ideas. Start with having one.

    BTW so far 160000 have converted back to 'something like this'. Many missions in India are using people clad in hindu looking full saffron clothes to spread the 'truth' (seen it myself, you have to read carefully the fine print on their posters to see who they really are.). so much for your truth and your truthfullness. However swindling in only a minor crime when your hands drip of...

    May 30, 2006  
    Blogger Joseph said...

    Ah, now we are getting to the nub of the problem.

    Something about that quote of mine bothered you?

    "I should remind everyone that hindus have monkey gods, elephant gods, and cow gods."

    I still think there is nothing wrong with that statement. It is not insulting, and I would think hindus would be proud of these beliefs.

    "Do these folks really think people will convert back to something like

    ...These folks (hindus) really think people (Christians) will convert back to something like that?

    I still can not see those conversions happening. According to you it does. If that is so, then I think the converts did not understand the Christianity they claimed. That's my opinion. No need to get insulted by my opinion. You must have the same opinion of hindus that convert to something else.. wondering why they would do such a thing. In looking into 'why', we can learn something.

    "What were expecting from me mate? A tirade of the same 'quality?'. Do better next time if you are sincere abt exchanging ideas. Start with having one."

    You see 'tirade' where there is none. I am not angry. I think I have just stated the truth. These are my ideas. I think it mainly a rural India phenomenon. I don't think any Christian would ever find the old religion appealing again.

    I thought I was speaking to Christians and our understanding of the problem. I did not know Indians would be insulted, but rather explain where I have too narrow a vision. Actually, no hindus have ever commented on this blog, so their reading of the comments I had not considered.

    But still, sorry, but I do not see a problem here.

    May 30, 2006  
    Anonymous jam jam jammy said...

    Hinduism does not have a central authority, so I'll tell you what a Hindu thinks when it comes to God.

    According to the Vedas, there is one God, called Brahman or Aatman (roughly the absolute, also the creator). We all pray to Him ultimately. He is everywhere and in everyone, but has no shape and size.

    Now coming to all the much abused deities, they are Devi and Devta ( roughly good folk ). They are manifestations of God, of its different qualities, moods etc etc. its all mixed with loads of stories, mythology and other stuff people wish to revere. hence a lot of hindus (including my granny) attend the church on wednesday. respect for other religions is part of hinduism (sabai bhumi Gopal ki - all the land belongs to Him). Personally, if a Hindu converts, I have no problem with him. What I have problem with is forcing and cheating poor people to convert. Its criminal, and morally unjustifiable. personally i know of cases where money is used to convert. a lot of my friends say what wrong with that? the problem is its impossible to separate from stories of people given fat medical bills after a treatment in a mission hospital, and asked to convert in return of waiving it. so whats the loss with losing a bad Hindu? whats the gain in getting a bad convert? and when there is law that tries to stop blackmail (not propagationn not conversion), all this hue and cry, but not a word abt regulating the mission activities. are they above the law?

    abt ridiculing the deities, I'll tell you i find some of the customs and rituals ridiculous myself. but they have singnificantly gone down with modernity. I used to think it only happens under the cover of my religion, but then I watched Benny Hinn perform 'miracles' in front of a million people in Mumbai...

    June 05, 2006  
    Anonymous jam jam jammy said...

    See this entry in wikipedia

    Polytheistic views should be carefully distinguished from religions such as Smarta Hinduism, which present multiple divinities as different aspects of the same God. Rather than being polytheistic, Smarta Hinduism is a form of inclusive monotheism, where many deities are viewed as just different names for the single monotheistic God, and thus provide many paths to the same ultimate truth. Hindu writers are often at pains to clarify this point to practitioners.

    My note: Hence in Bhagwadgeeta, Lord Krishna says ' all paths come to me ' and not ' only my path leads to God'. Hope you undertand Hanumana, what you call the 'Monkey God', better.

    June 05, 2006  
    Blogger Joseph said...

    OK jam jam.. thanks for the information.

    Benny Hinn is indeed a bad fellow.

    I know personally of some Polish folks here in the USA that went to one of his theatre antics.

    Even they were laughing at the performance, yet they felt compelled to put $5 in the offering plate.

    Group hypnotism to gullible people. Or worse.

    June 05, 2006  

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